Cliff Keen Las Vegas

ugarles
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Re: Cliff Keen Las Vegas

Post by ugarles »

This whole tournament was a huge bummer outside of Shapiro over Andonian and Ramirez over Carr. Not a single odd-number medal so everyone finishes with a loss.
charliemunger
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Re: Cliff Keen Las Vegas

Post by charliemunger »

Only in Vegas for 3 days but coach Grey looks like he's been taking multiple trips to the Vegas buffets.
SlapTheMat
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Re: Cliff Keen Las Vegas

Post by SlapTheMat »

My thoughts on this weekend, would love to hear anyone else’s as well.

Not to sound like Negative Nancy, and with a complete understanding on how difficult this tournament is, how it is early season, and how it is quite apparent that there are some situations going on with a few of the top guys on the team (concussion, injury, death in family).. this tournament was pretty grueling to watch as a Cornell fan. The lows were very low, however there was about 5 high to really high points that stick out in my mind.

Start with those…

1- Ramirez win over Carr. I know that on Flo they were saying what made this win even more impressive was that the score was 10-5 last year. If you do remember that match last year however, Ramirez did take him down and it was 8-5 with a couple seconds left when Ramirez just stopped and Carr dove in for a pointless takedown to make it 10-5. So he gave him a hell of a match last year and was one of only 3 guys to take him down the entire year. What impressed me most about this match and really is kind of mind blowing is that unlike last year, Carr didn’t even get a single takedown on Julian. To hold him without a takedown is pretty wow! It was disappointing after such an enormous semi win that he wasn’t able to defend his title and lost 4-2. With that being said, similar to Ramirez, is finals opponent is right in that top tier in the weight and proved that at the allstar classic and this weekend. Here is a thought by the way…..When you have a finals match… would it be that difficult to extend the area of mats around the circle so we don’t have any gym floor touch outbound calls? Drives me nuts and there is no excuse. Ramirez had himself a tourney even prior to the Carr win as he had 3 pins and one over Matthew Olguin (Oregon St). By the way, not sure why on every single record of the match it says that it was an injury default. He pinned him in the cradle. Wrestlestat, flo arena/flowrestking all day inn def.


2- Meyer Shapiro dominant major over Bryce Andonian. As much confidence as I have in Meyer, I was very uncertain if he would win this match prior. If I had to bet I would’ve picked him because I feel like he has such good hip awareness that he wouldn’t get caught in any of Andonian’s Big moves, but never did I see the final score 16-4 (even with keeping the 3 pt takedown in mind). People can say whatever they want, but without a doubt in my mind, had he not had that concussion at the end of the Andonian match, he for sure beats Cardenas by bonus and also beats Teemer as I think he matches up good against him. Tough to say against Robb, but I don’t see anybody else in this weight class ever beating Andonian 16-4. To say that he was a shell of himself after the Andonian match would be a massive understatement. He had trouble getting back to the center of the mat at times. I’m actually surprised he only lost 8-5 in those conditions. It obnoxious looking at some of the social media posts with people talking about how Shapiro ran out of gas and how he’s not well conditioned.Clearly they have no clue who this kid is. I hope he’s OK. I hope that he takes the time to get healthy and I hope himself, along with Vito and Foca show the nation who they really are /or remind everyone of it come March. I am kind of disappointed that when he took his second injury time out in the first minute of the Trombley match.. that someone didn’t step in and say enough is enough. A young competitor is never going to say that they’re not all right to continue and that’s where the people around him have to be responsible for his health and safety. This is all assuming that he had a concussion in the Andonian match which I don’t see what else it could be.

3- Cardenas beating of the defending big ten champ in the quarters with his 17-2 tech fall thumping of Allred. When Cardenas is confident in himself, he is a force to be reckoned with and he proved it. It reminded me of his comeback on Beard in the EIWA title match. He is a massive guy and extremely powerful and has a blast double that is so effective and difficult to stop.
I think Trent Hidlay and Brooks are in a class of their own at the weight to be honest but I think Cardenas is in that next tier of #3- #6 no doubt. Going to hate seeing him wrestle in another team singlet next year but will be routing for him next year regardless as well.

4- I think that Benny Baker did a hell of a job at 174. He won 3 matches and I didn’t really see that coming. He is tougn and gritty and if he continues to improve he could absolutely be a NCAA qualifier end of year.

5- Ungar’s consistency was on display. He is a tough out for anyone and is so difficult to score on. Let’s face said he is never going to light up the scoreboard or be that must see action packed match. With that being said, I find myself having extreme confidence in him right now to pull out just about every match. His ability to grind out these one point matches over and over again as a skill which will come in handy come March. . What is very exciting is you can’t tell me there’s one guy in this weight class that you look at and just say “well Ungar cannot beat him.” I don’t think there’s ever been wait this wide open away in which a dozen different guys could win it and it would not be all that shocking. This was a big tournament for him.

I was going to say that I liked the fact that Fernandes went the entire tournament without any medical inj or ff but I see that he didn’t wrestle his 7th place match. Regardless was good to see him wrestle the 6 matches I believe that he did . 5 or 6.

Concerns are obvious.
VITO being ok. When is surprise me if this was more of a mental break than anything I mean, if they can learn anything from what Yianni went through last year making a world final and losing the first match and having an SV with Paniro…. It can’t be a coincidence that Vito won a world title and lost just about an equally shocking early season match just like Yianni did. it wasn’t that The who it was too was the huge shocking part for either of these guys, but it was more of the fact that they just lost to anybody. whatever the reason I’m glad that he’s taking a break and think he’ll be the better for it come March.

FOCA being ok I don’t think should have even wrestled this weekend. To win by a point first round and lose to Wolf and then get majored by Colombia, clearly he was not in his right frame of mind. I really hope that he’s OK and sorry for his loss and I love watching him wrestle and he’s on all cylinders .

SHAPIRO being ok.. already spoke of this up top. Please don’t rush him back.

CORNELLA idk. it’s like Jekyll and Hyde
Outscores first 2 opponents 29-2 then gets tech failed by Mendez.
Then Majors a ranked decent guy from Oregon St. 8-0.
So at that point he had 3 wins by 37-2 count and a tech fall loss of 17-2.
Then came a very frustrating ride back down the roller coaster After being 0-0 gives up a td with 2 sec left in first
Then after being 3-1 finally shoots in during end of 2nd and runs out of time. Then all of a sudden it just all fell apart and what was once a very close match became a bonus for his opponent. The same kind of thing happened last year to him at CKLV. I understand that Mendez won the tournament and he had a hell of a tournament but there’s nobody in this weight class that should ever- ever come close to tech falling Cornella. He has lost to Bartlett in SV in a match he probably should’ve won. He had lost to McNeil in TB. We saw him bonus his way through EIWAs last year… There was that one week last year where they had the Arizona State and Virginia Tech and he was just on fire nearly majoring both Vazquez and Crook. He looked great! His first 6 min and 40 seconds against Swiderski was wow at NcAAs. I mean he was just beating the piss out of him on top. He had five minutes of riding time before… Well, you know.
Mendez was doing today to Cornella from the top position that Cornella was doing to Swiderski last year. . I don’t know, can’t even say that he’s not a tournament wrestler because we saw what he did at EIWAs not to mention he has has made age level world teams. Idk I just feel like he has the talent to beat anyone but inconsistency to lose matches either that you wouldn’t think you would lose or lose in anway that you certainly wouldn’t expect. Hope he can get hot at the right time and stay hot at NCAAs.

I still think this team has the potential to take second at NCAAs and AA 8 guys with everyone healthy and at their best.

On to the next competition! Let’s Go!
SlapTheMat
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Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Cliff Keen Las Vegas

Post by SlapTheMat »

ugarles wrote: 02 Dec 2023, 20:47 This whole tournament was a huge bummer outside of Shapiro over Andonian and Ramirez over Carr. Not a single odd-number medal so everyone finishes with a loss.
Agreed 100% . Ramirez over Carr, Shapiro over Andonian and Cardenas tech over Allred. Outside of that a lot of bummers.
Docger
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Joined: 06 Jan 2022, 16:02

Re: Cliff Keen Las Vegas

Post by Docger »

If one looks at the data base of wrestling injuries ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29484899/} it seems that Cornell kids have more than their share.
Given the physical and the mental of trianing and competition, not surprising when combined with a stressful academic program.
If I remember last year at home vs Wisconsin on Nov 19 ( the first dual) the team seemed uninspired and the coach noted that the blame was on him.
Although not an insider, it seems that strong programs like PSU do not have desultory wrestling episodes and their guys seem to stay healthy . There is a reason so many are eager to join the Happy Valley undergrad and regional training clubs.
I still believe wrestling is a great sport There are not many big time sports where a 125 pounder can compete on a team with someone twice his size.
Yes Veeck put in 3'7" Gaedel to pinch hit for the STl Browns but that was an exception and a PR stunt.
enterprise
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Joined: 11 Feb 2022, 11:52

Re: Cliff Keen Las Vegas

Post by enterprise »

Docger wrote: 02 Dec 2023, 22:03 If one looks at the data base of wrestling injuries ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29484899/} it seems that Cornell kids have more than their share.
Given the physical and the mental of trianing and competition, not surprising when combined with a stressful academic program.
If I remember last year at home vs Wisconsin on Nov 19 ( the first dual) the team seemed uninspired and the coach noted that the blame was on him.
Although not an insider, it seems that strong programs like PSU do not have desultory wrestling episodes and their guys seem to stay healthy . There is a reason so many are eager to join the Happy Valley undergrad and regional training clubs.
I still believe wrestling is a great sport There are not many big time sports where a 125 pounder can compete on a team with someone twice his size.
Yes Veeck put in 3'7" Gaedel to pinch hit for the STl Browns but that was an exception and a PR stunt.
You provided a link to an abstract that is full of disclaimers and conditions, with no data specific to any individual program. To quote, "Few studies provided data about the situations in which injuries occur and the causes of injuries." In addition, the article is more than 5 years old so the data is at least 6 years old. I am not sure what you are trying to suggest or what chains you are trying to rattle.

If you have access to the details of the report, I would be interested to see them. in the meantime, comparing PSU to Cornell is like comparing apples to oranges. The fact that an Ivy League team can be considered a top-10 NCAA wrestling program year after year is a tribute to the coaches, athletes, administrators and alumni who work so hard to make it so.
Docger
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Re: Cliff Keen Las Vegas

Post by Docger »

"Average injury rates weighted by sample size are 16.3/1000AE for 8/11 competition studies " Those studies are considered accurate because they involve physicians, coaches and referees. The higher averages (69/1000) seen in the data bases are not so much to be trusted with sketchy information.. There are other studies that give percentages of types of injuries from joints, concussions, etc Purpose : point out that injuries are common but that Cornell injuries appear to be more common than 16.3 per 1000 athletic encounters. That is purely subjective upon watching numerous matches over twelve years. I do not think a tabulation from 6 years ago plays much of a role. Yes, a concussion protocol is relatively new but that does not effect incidence of primary injury.
Over the past ten years, I do not notice that the PSU squad has its major players on the sidelines often . Again, purely subjective . What to be taken from this? Coaches might learn from other coaches about methods used in their programs. For the sake of the students as opposed to hush hush.
As for comparing programs, I have always been aware that Ivy schools compete with state schools with one hand tied behind their back. Differences in acceptance rates, athletic scholarships, transfers . post graduate competition rules, ( cover ups i.e Jordan) etc. and it is a credit that Ivy schools compete at a national level in wrestling as opposed ,say ,to football. They do so also in other team sports such as ice hockey and lacrosse. I limited my blog to a subjective feeling of injury differences. The continued allowance of Shapiro to wrestle in the matches wherein he could barely standup is a case in point which motivates my blog. 50 years practicing as a physician putting the patient first colors my thoughts. Later on two Cornell wrestlers opted for medical forfeits . Whether real or just a protective measure because placing 7 or 8 did not matter much , I do not know. So those numbers alone are much higher than the average of 16.3 per 1000 athletic encounters.
enterprise
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Re: Cliff Keen Las Vegas

Post by enterprise »

The Ivy League leads THE NATION in its research and application of concussion protocols. If you had any hands-on experience with what Cornell trainers and Cornell sports medicine does with athletes even suspected of having a concussion, you would not head down this road. To suggest that the coaching staff and the trainers who accompanied the team to Las Vegas would jeopardize the health of any Cornell wrestler for the sake of winning is so unfair as to be offensive. Until you have been the physician or trainer whose responsibility it is to evaluate an athlete's condition and decide on the spot that he or she should not continue to compete, you really should not pass judgement.
Docger
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Joined: 06 Jan 2022, 16:02

Re: Cliff Keen Las Vegas

Post by Docger »

I have worked in ERs and directed an ICU for many years been responsible for evaluating dozens and dozens of head injuries . The NP testing developed in the 90s has a low sensitivity . It is still used at point of care . There is general agreement however that an athlete should not return to competition until totally symptom free.
If you saw the Shapiro match with the Stanford kid would you have sent him out for a follow up match? The FDA has recently approved an Abbot point of care blood test for serum bio markers that are elevated with TBI. Takes 15 minutes . Results and long term outcomes are being studied.
Most of the work is being done in football.
In 2005 Dr Bennet Omalu published the findings of neuro fibrillatory tangles in the brain of Mike Webster .
The NFL sued him . He was a pathology resident at the Univ of Pittsburgh and was sued by the NFL leading to loss of his job.. Different than the changes seen in Alzheimer’s
His colleagues did not support him. Reminds me of Ignaz Semmelweis whose hand washing with chlorine to prevent the spreading of childbed fever was rejected by the medical community. He was beaten and died in an asylum . The autopsy showed he died from sepsis incurred from wounds from his beatings. He was really the person who introduced antiseptic procedures in medicine.
A long winded diatribe brought on by the signs of the symptoms in the Shapiro match.
Corellan
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Joined: 20 Nov 2020, 21:45

Re: Cliff Keen Las Vegas

Post by Corellan »

Without information about what acually ocurred speculating that a concussion happened ,
and this and that should have been done is ludicrous IMO.

A more positive perception of the weekend .
Shapiro almost teched one of the top guys in the weight class . Dominance like that
is a much better sign of winning National titles than say even squeaking to a CKLV title .

Ungar proved he is a top 5 guy in the country . The most success he has had by far at a prestigious tournament .
Maybe someone else could comment but he seems to have a harder time with big, physical 125 pounders .
His poise in unbelievable and he is battle tested far beyond a second year guy .
He has jumped levels

Vito should be #1 in everyones P4P .
Winning World Title is so far beyond beyond NCAA Titles .
Add in his dominance of all time great FernFix and RBY in collegiate style wrestling.
I mean who smashes legends like that ? and wins World Titles .
No one else is in the conversations for P4P #1

Foca has proven he is a savage .
No idea what happened but he is at a new weight class and am sure he will be in the right spot by the end
of the year .

Cardenas smashed a great guy .(Allred) While he didn't jump levels per se he is clearly better than last year when he
All - Americaned . Lets call it jumping levels in the domination department which yields fruits as well.

Fernandes after not wrestling forever and really only having one season in his whole career got a lot of matches and looked good in
a lot of them . He will get better and better as the year goes on .

The new Guys , Baker , Quarella , and Fernandez are the new guys . All won at least a match I believe .

Cornella finished close to seed? This was National Tournament quality weight . He needs to be more consistent , but
the talent is there . It was a average showing .

Ramirez is the star of the show this weekend .
Carr is an all-time great , I think he is currently 3 in the P4P.
It is all about breaking through and jumping levels and it doesn't get much bigger than this victory.
Ramirez has National Title Winning Talent .
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